Tuesday, February 8, 2011
Stefan Molyneux Debates the Venus Project
This is an interesting 2 hour discussion/debate between Freedomain Radio's Stefan Molyneux and a Venus Project supporter. I have a lot of the same reservations as Stefan regarding the project, but I think dialogue on the topic is healthy. What does everyone out there think about the Venus Project?
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8 comments:
Interesting conversation.
Peter Joseph did a good job of explaining the monetary system, among other things, in the first, or was it the second Zeitgeist movie. However there are major problems with the solution he advocates. The first is that allocating resources isn't primarily a data problem. Value judgements have to be made, both economic (which is what Stefan Molyneux focuses on) but more importantly, ethical. Computers are not capable of making these kinds of judgements.
The second problem is Ashby's law, which is the problem all bureaucracies face. The amount of freedom systems allow is proportionate to their complexity in relationship to the number of variables they need to manage. That means that the monolithic technological control system the Zeitgeist Movement advocate has to be complex enough to manage up to 9 billion people and the needs of all the ecological sub-systems on the planet. If it can't, then it can only work via dictatorship and autocracy. Interestingly Peter Joseph argues in his newest Zeitgeist movie that nature is a dictatorship. It isn't. It's his system that is.
Molyeux, however, brings another set of problems that come from his advocacy of Anarcho-capitalism, or so called market capitalism. Molyneux goes so far as to reject having any interest in the outcome of his political philosophy, which despite his protestations will ultimately lead to corporate governance. A free market simply can't function in a social system that contains secret societies, groups of individuals who cooperate to enrich themselves at the exclusion, and cost of the wider community. The challenge Molyneux shirks is more subtle, but no less problematic than the problem a Venus project would face with complexity. Molyneux ignores the problem expanding human identity, our ability to cooperate with the wider social and ecological systems of the planet. Teaching some school kids critical thinking isn't going to lead to a revolution in human consciousness.
This leads me to my real purpose in writing. Freedom can only be created by a system that both expands structures and expands identities in ways that promote freedom. We need systems capable of handling the complexities of life (which means highly adaptive and in effect anarchical) and a culture that helps to develop human beings with much greater levels of awareness and empathy for each other, and the animals and planets which share our ecosystem.
Any system that doesn't deal with both of these issues, can at best only be partial.
Best wishes,
Nonoun
Awesome analysis Nonoun. I agree with you down the board. I've had some other excellent, well-informed comments on my Facebook page about this issue too. Allow me to repost:
Craig Morpheus Arroyo said:
Just to let you know some facts - tonight's international zeitgeist meeting was the first behind "closed doors". The critical thinking, pro-transparency members obviously objected to this in numbers, yet the room was closed, open only to of...ficial "coordinators". I became involved in debate with Peter Joseph, VTV who is the spokesperson in discussion with Stefan Molyneux, global zeitgeist co-ordinator Gilbert Ismael and UK co-ordinator Simon Aker. The meeting was closed and objections were ignored - until that is I stated that I would contact Stefan Molyneux, Charlie Vietch, Birgitta Jonsdottir, Alex Jones, yourself and others - in order to expose these tyrannical developments within TZM structure - the loss of a transparent decision making process would for me be the last straw. I will remain inside TZM for the short term, however it is becoming increasingly frustrating trying to defend principles such as transparent decision making within TZM, it's hierachy are making increasingly ego motivated decisions, leading members to question motive and agenda. Those who are critical are often labelled trolls, ganged up on by a clique of co-ordinators with blind devotion to Peter Joseph and subsequently excluded from all internal communication. This has happened many times. What is very troubling is this, I along with other critical thinkers in the movement are becoming less and less, there is fast developing a massive member base of sheeple, who are willing to carry out directives without question, so as to remain part of the "team". Peter Joseph and his clique of wolf like co-ordinators are encouraging this, whilst also filtering out the critical thinkers. I do not know how long I will remain inside, as one of this movements most outspoken critics in regard to a possible fascist tyranny scenario and how it is possible for that to develop, I could be out very soon, I am without doubt subject of a witch hunt as are others. This may be a final opportunity to expose internal operations within TZM.
And James Gillett said:
TZM & VP is communism reborn and repackaged by the same folks who brought you the great recession and state multiculturalism. Nuff Said
TZM and TVP are wishful thinking based on some technotopic idealism. It seems more like a distraction and a facelift for statism than a plausible solution for true freedom. The real solution is self-reliance, buy land, dig a well, build a home on it, grow a garden on it, don't pay taxes on it, create your own sustainable energy sources, and defend yourself, your family and your property from anyone who claims authority over your natural sovereignty. Peace.
Men from Mars. Women from Venus. Venus Project = NWO feminist outfit.
If we want to change the system, it is quite simple. Enough people must run for candidacy to remove the offending NWO candidate. Zeitgeist and Venus-Pro are diversions of NWO media and a waste of time and resources.
Neurotech to End All Free Thought
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=318515515322&topic=16648
Utopia - Capitalism with Socialist Caps on Personal Wealth - US$20 Million
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36665503866
Nonoun,
I respect your well thought out comment. Peter Joseph does have some problems to deal with, ones that I personally think are insurmountable, but I wish him well trying to make it work within the non-aggression principle.
However, I totally disagree with you, respectfully of course, about a "free market being unable to function with secret societies." I'm somewhat baffled, since you seem to have a sound understanding of economics- but have you read up on the theory of the State as espoused by such people as Lysander Spooner, Murray Rothbard, and others?
My point is not an appeal to authority- I genuinely care and think you have missed a crucial link in your analysis of anarcho-capitalism, and it is this: what do we care whether there are secret societies? FOR EXAMPLE- how did, for instance, these mega corporations and NWO cartels gain such massive power? BY GETTING CONTROL OF THE GOVERNMENT. Abolish government, and replace it with no central control coupled with a respect for property rights, and there you have it my friend. Not a UTOPIA, but a system that would lead to the GREATEST FREEDOM and minimize the DAMAGE caused by malcontents.
Yours in Freedom,
Aaron@whoismises.com
@ anonymous no government guy^, I think your on the right path to functional beliefs but how would no government be the,'' The rationally best'', government? Outside of ancient indigenous cultures who also have some sort of governement, an off grid completely self sufficient way of life does not exist currently from my perception of how things work. Im not aware that there is such a thing as no government. For example, in a species like ours that needs a male and female to reproduce, there are no single persons succeeding on their own. Since humans are not asexual, more than 1 person has to be involved. Also we care for our young, so a compromisng agreement has to be made beetween the family. Whenever there is more than 1 voice, a system of functioning has to exist for continuance of success. Man nor women can be anarchist because of the bond that makes life for the two functional. Just like the relationship of a male and female, a child cannot exist unless a relationshiip/government exists, and just like those relationships, there are more and more... So my self explanatory question is how are we to get rid of all government without getting rid of everything? In order for anarchy to work, every single kind of relationship must not. The way i see life is that everything is connected as a whole and cannot exist without itself. Writing this has made me realize that there is literally no way to be an anarchist without destroying yourself which I believe to be nonphysically impossible. But as an example how can one be an anarchist? Is the answer live harmoniously with nature and survive together? No, because being in a relationship with nature is being democracatic correct? People have a say and so does every other being. Lets try again... How about if it were possible to sit in the dessert and feed off the sun like a plant? Hmm well first off your in a relationship with Earth since your sitting on it, and your using the suns energy as well... How about being still in space, well your taking up space, so your in a relationship with matter/existance. Hmm well i think I have dug to the bottom of the barrel and confirmed that there is no such thing as Anarchy inside existance... But hey reach for the stars if you ask me. How about open voluntary decentralized representative democracies that select representatives that start from a small local group like a town, up towards larger groups like a state and jurisdiction is based on situations decided from the roots up? Unless everyone is corrupt, then I see no flaw in it. Please tell me what you think of this government system/relationship. Also if im totally off about anarchism than please elaborate on the system of living you believe in. I see how screwed up abuse of control is, but i do not see a way away from control, rather i see more efficient systems and a continuing effort towards a balanced control...
@ Eric, i think your description of how these people operate is interesting, you sort of clarify the contradiction in their beliefs of achieving revolutionary effiency to being dysfunctional systematically. Very informing, As for your comments,''It seems more like a distraction and a facelift for statism than a plausible solution for true freedom. The real solution is self-reliance, buy land, dig a well, build a home on it, grow a garden on it, don't pay taxes on it, create your own sustainable energy sources, and defend yourself, your family and your property from anyone who claims authority over your natural sovereignty.''... @Eric I believe as a majority, people have lost the understanding of true freedom. I do not believe true freedom is available. Call it a negative belief if, or perhaps an interesting belief, but i believe true freedom only comes in tiny samples. It comes when there is absolutely nothing holding a being back from being what it wants. True freedom to me is alot of hard slaving till a tipping point of achievment occurs where one can be exactly as they wish to be... Example: I would like to be able to go anywhere, eat good raw foods, have neccesities, bla bla and all the resources one could need to be. But as this reality works, my freedom is inconceivable. If i could somehow claim a space or chunk of land would it really be mine, or would it be a compromise made beetween the world and myself? The truth is i would have to be a dictator and govern the world to back off completely without a discussion. Instinctually everything i want to exists will be my fight, but i believe in oreder to maintain some level of peace, a compromise has to be made. Wtihout some system of compromising/understaning one another would be a never ending war for every beings freedom to decide what they want. I believe existance is one huge open voluntary representative democractic government that does not allow true freedom but allows every being to decide what its battle towards freedom is. I sort of get what anarchist are aiming for and it is the solution being no solution. The only thing is that with no ''solution'' there is no alternative?. I believe there is only one way to succeed towards true freedom and its to maintain a consistent effort to intereact respectfully with the confines of all beings beliefs/efforts towards true freedom. It is like a never ending process of evolving one way or another. Obtaining true freedom is the will to live, the will to thrive and is the divine balance that goes further into neverland... I thought the venus project and the inventing designer guy have some interesting ideas and many bad that alltogether are apart of pushing towards their beliefs for true freedom. Everything NWO is about seems to be a way of belief to push for true freedom. I do not hate the NWO, i do not believe in supporting its beliefs. I believe they are simply apart of this great neverending balance. They can believe what they want and people who also have thouhts and beliefs be however they want. The compromise/government of all beings will be the deciding factor that maintains this neverending balance which we call life. Peace-AG
Im not aware that there is such a thing as no government.
Government is nothing but a bad idea that a lot of people believe in. It doesn't exist any more than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Govern-ment (literally [ment=mind, govern=control] = mind-control) is an idea believed in by a group of people who grant themselves the legal right and responsibility to initiate the use of violence against others in a given geographical location. They steal taxes from the population and imprison anyone who refuses to pay.
For example, in a species like ours that needs a male and female to reproduce, there are no single persons succeeding on their own. Since humans are not asexual, more than 1 person has to be involved. Also we care for our young, so a compromisng agreement has to be made beetween the family. Whenever there is more than 1 voice, a system of functioning has to exist for continuance of success. Man nor women can be anarchist because of the bond that makes life for the two functional.
Your example of a family is a family, not a government. You're trying to say "anarchy cannot exist because even a family is a government." I defined a government above. A family is not a government; a family is a family. It is one of nature's natural groupings, as are tribes and small communities. There is no need for "representatives" as you keep talking about. The whole idea of having "representatives" to act on your behalf, competing with a bunch of other "representatives" acting on other people's behalf is just a charade... as real as WWE professional wrestling. No other person can represent me because I am unique, therefore I do not submit to the imposed authority of some guy who claims to represent me, my family, my friends, and community... no one person can come even close to adequately representing even one other person, let alone a whole community or a whole country! This is why global politics are always tyrannical and never in the best interest of the people. We don't need a new World order, we don't need European, Asian or any political unions, we don't need any large scale bureaucracies making decisions for us. We need to reclaim our sovereignty, stop paying taxes, stop obeying unlawful legalities, stop voting for so-called "representatives," and take the power back into our own hands. That's called "self-rule," and self-rule is the definition of anarchy. It exists if you want it, and many people make sure it exists by living it.
@Eric I believe as a majority, people have lost the understanding of true freedom. I do not believe true freedom is available. Call it a negative belief if, or perhaps an interesting belief, but i believe true freedom only comes in tiny samples.
It sounds like you've "lost the understanding of true freedom" if you "do not believe true freedom is available" or it mysteriously "only comes in tiny samples." I am a free sovereign being and I will die free, but I understand you "not believing freedom is available" because that's how you've been programmed. Your negative, cynical, defeatist vibe is bumming me out. Peace "Freedom is a state of mind. A mind is a state of being. Stay the fuck out of my mind and my being" -Corporate Avenger - I Don't Fault the Police (but the people that rule got 'em on a short leash)
Here are the lyrics to that song:
Freedom is a state of mind,
A mind is a state of being,
Stay the Fuck out of my mind and my being.
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run them got of em on a short leash
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run them they divide and deceive
I don't cry when the police die cause they probably deserved it,
Run around with a badge and a gun
And they god damn fuck with everyone.
Enforce rules made by fools,
Violence and fear there tools
They dress to oppress with there laws they arrest
And they leave us powerless
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run 'em got 'em on a short leash
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run 'em they divide and deceive
We have created a reality based on fear where the terrorist, the gangster, and the police can take away your freedom or your sense of security at any time.
I don't cry when a Gangster dies cause they probably deserved to,
Run around with a bag and a gun
And they god damn fuck with everyone,
Enforce rules made by fools
Violence and fear there tools
They dress to oppress thinking fear is respect
And they leave us powerless.
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run 'em got 'em on a short leash
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run they divide and deceive
A society which incarcerates it's own population for any minor infraction of which there are 100's of 1,000's of pages upon pages of laws and reasons for the district attorney and the local jurisdiction and the justice system to put its entire force on removing an individual from his family connection is one separated from the tribal earth.
I don't cry when a terrorist dies cause he probably deserved it,
Run around with a bomb and a gun,
And they god damn fuck with every one.
Enforce rules made by fools,
Violence and fear there tools.
Bombs fall from the sky
And a mom as she cries as she watched her babies die.
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run got of my short leash
I don't fault the police
Cause the people that run they divide and deceive
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